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	<title>Comments for San Francisco Critical Mass</title>
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	<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org</link>
	<description>words, history, ideas and more from San Francisco&#039;s Critical Mass</description>
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		<title>Comment on Critical Mass Goes Deep (into the southern neighborhoods) by Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/09/01/critical-mass-goes-deep-into-the-southern-neighborhoods/comment-page-1/#comment-5758</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=556#comment-5758</guid>
		<description>This was my first time going to CM. It was so much fun! I can&#039;t wait until the next one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was my first time going to CM. It was so much fun! I can&#8217;t wait until the next one.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Argument #1 Against Critical Mass: It Doesn&#8217;t Change Anything! by Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/04/30/argument-1/comment-page-1/#comment-5753</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 00:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=404#comment-5753</guid>
		<description>Hugh,
This is the second link on the list you sent me and asked for a response after seeing my website CriticalMassSucks.com.

I already posted a general comment on your &quot;uncivility sucks&quot; link, and also to the &quot;Is Critical Mass Bad — or Good — for Biking? Veteran Bike Activists Chime In&quot; link. I hope some of your viewers who have not seen those comments will take the time to look it over. Hey, you asked me to do this, remember?

Many of my thoughts in my above post actually respond to this question as well. Does Critical Mass change anything? There is no real way to find out, just as Donathan so accurately pointed out and I discussed in more detail earlier.

My point of view is this, however. Since you have no clear data or proof that it DOES help, why engage in behavior that is so disruptive to the city you live in? Clearly it does cause frustration and anger in people, so why do you feel that this is your right? Keep in mind, like I stated before, you are not disrupting some vague, general, evil  &quot;They&quot; that embodies all that is wrong with American transportation - you are disrupting and frustrating &quot;people&quot;. Normal people who want to live their lives.

By all means do what you like to help the cause of cycling, just don&#039;t do it by messing with other people. This is the main stumbling block between those that are FOR CM and those that are AGAINST it. We see differently on how people should treat their fellow man. I dont know if we were raised different, or what the deal is. In all the blogs and websites all over the country that I have participated in on the subject, for those who do NOT like CM, there is one thing in common. They all cannot fathom how a person thinks it is okay to act like this to their neighbors and fellow citizens. It seems to be what angers and frustrates them the most (at least as far as I can tell - I certainly cannot speak for all of them).

The response that we are often met with is simply &quot;you need to change your attitude&quot; or some equally aggravating quip like that. It&#039;s as if to say &quot;Well, you are just too closed minded to understand the brilliance of our actions, but once you are enlightened you will see it our way&quot; or something like that - which is, of course, totally condescending. This was part of the fuel that sparked the fire of CriticalMassSucks.com. Im surprised people that engage in such disruptive and condescending behavior would be upset by a website that uses a rude and condescending tone back. 

I realize riding a bike once a month is easy and fun. Much easier than trying to get petitions signed, or discussing concerns with local, regional, or national policy makers. But just because its easy and fun, and others are doing it with you - so many others that you can get away with it - does not make it right. 

And as I stated on the &quot;Is it Bad or Good..&quot; Link. Even if we lived in the hypothetical world where you could provide 100% scientific proof that the net result is a positive one for cycling - I would STILL not approve, as I am not one who believes in &quot;the end justifies the means&quot;.

Let me state yet again, that I appreciate and agree with your motivation. Well, that is IF the motivation is to increase cycling safety, access, etc. (im not really sure WHAT the actual motivations are which is yet another issue I have with CM, but we wont get into that here). Yes, I agree with that, I just strongly and in no uncertain terms, disagree with the methods you choose to bring about the changes you desire.

If you are breaking the law and disrupting people to move your agenda forward, the first question for any member of a society should be.... Is there a DIFFERENT way to go about this? Yes it may be much harder, yes it may take  time - but if you want to live in a civilized society that is the price you pay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugh,<br />
This is the second link on the list you sent me and asked for a response after seeing my website CriticalMassSucks.com.</p>
<p>I already posted a general comment on your &#8220;uncivility sucks&#8221; link, and also to the &#8220;Is Critical Mass Bad — or Good — for Biking? Veteran Bike Activists Chime In&#8221; link. I hope some of your viewers who have not seen those comments will take the time to look it over. Hey, you asked me to do this, remember?</p>
<p>Many of my thoughts in my above post actually respond to this question as well. Does Critical Mass change anything? There is no real way to find out, just as Donathan so accurately pointed out and I discussed in more detail earlier.</p>
<p>My point of view is this, however. Since you have no clear data or proof that it DOES help, why engage in behavior that is so disruptive to the city you live in? Clearly it does cause frustration and anger in people, so why do you feel that this is your right? Keep in mind, like I stated before, you are not disrupting some vague, general, evil  &#8220;They&#8221; that embodies all that is wrong with American transportation &#8211; you are disrupting and frustrating &#8220;people&#8221;. Normal people who want to live their lives.</p>
<p>By all means do what you like to help the cause of cycling, just don&#8217;t do it by messing with other people. This is the main stumbling block between those that are FOR CM and those that are AGAINST it. We see differently on how people should treat their fellow man. I dont know if we were raised different, or what the deal is. In all the blogs and websites all over the country that I have participated in on the subject, for those who do NOT like CM, there is one thing in common. They all cannot fathom how a person thinks it is okay to act like this to their neighbors and fellow citizens. It seems to be what angers and frustrates them the most (at least as far as I can tell &#8211; I certainly cannot speak for all of them).</p>
<p>The response that we are often met with is simply &#8220;you need to change your attitude&#8221; or some equally aggravating quip like that. It&#8217;s as if to say &#8220;Well, you are just too closed minded to understand the brilliance of our actions, but once you are enlightened you will see it our way&#8221; or something like that &#8211; which is, of course, totally condescending. This was part of the fuel that sparked the fire of CriticalMassSucks.com. Im surprised people that engage in such disruptive and condescending behavior would be upset by a website that uses a rude and condescending tone back. </p>
<p>I realize riding a bike once a month is easy and fun. Much easier than trying to get petitions signed, or discussing concerns with local, regional, or national policy makers. But just because its easy and fun, and others are doing it with you &#8211; so many others that you can get away with it &#8211; does not make it right. </p>
<p>And as I stated on the &#8220;Is it Bad or Good..&#8221; Link. Even if we lived in the hypothetical world where you could provide 100% scientific proof that the net result is a positive one for cycling &#8211; I would STILL not approve, as I am not one who believes in &#8220;the end justifies the means&#8221;.</p>
<p>Let me state yet again, that I appreciate and agree with your motivation. Well, that is IF the motivation is to increase cycling safety, access, etc. (im not really sure WHAT the actual motivations are which is yet another issue I have with CM, but we wont get into that here). Yes, I agree with that, I just strongly and in no uncertain terms, disagree with the methods you choose to bring about the changes you desire.</p>
<p>If you are breaking the law and disrupting people to move your agenda forward, the first question for any member of a society should be&#8230;. Is there a DIFFERENT way to go about this? Yes it may be much harder, yes it may take  time &#8211; but if you want to live in a civilized society that is the price you pay.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Critical Mass Goes Deep (into the southern neighborhoods) by Tandem David</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/09/01/critical-mass-goes-deep-into-the-southern-neighborhoods/comment-page-1/#comment-5711</link>
		<dc:creator>Tandem David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Sep 2010 04:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=556#comment-5711</guid>
		<description>Definitely agree, one of the best in a long time.  Kudos to the people leading it.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitely agree, one of the best in a long time.  Kudos to the people leading it.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Uncivility Sucks by To Be Fair… &#124; Stop Critical Mass</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/08/22/uncivility-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-5659</link>
		<dc:creator>To Be Fair… &#124; Stop Critical Mass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=546#comment-5659</guid>
		<description>[...] site, it seems that San Francisco Critical Mass is not without its sharer of violent incidents.  This one really makes me sick to my [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] site, it seems that San Francisco Critical Mass is not without its sharer of violent incidents.  This one really makes me sick to my [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Uncivility Sucks by Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/08/22/uncivility-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-5569</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 02:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=546#comment-5569</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve chimed in before on this blog to offer up San Jose Bike Party as an interesting take on the mass ride, and while I hate to be one of those annoying people who can&#039;t stop talking about themselves, I&#039;m doing it again.

The aims of San Jose Bike Party (www.sjbikeparty.org) are not all too different than Critical Mass, but the methods to achieve those ends vary.  I&#039;m not going to argue which version is better, I just want to point out that there&#039;s different methods and in three short years, San Jose&#039;s has grown very popular, not just with the bicyclist community, but with a larger populace, including many city officials.

Marc from CriticalMassSucks and anyone else reading this, you should check out San Jose&#039;s ride.  There&#039;s also a lot of good media on the ride as well, wiki.sjbikeparty.org/inthemedia.

Okay, sorry to jump on someone else&#039;s blog, but the conversation unfolding here made me really want to add this in.  I&#039;m not opposed to CM and am in fact am grateful that it set a world-wide movement in place.  I do think that San Jose has taken CM as a working model and made some significant changes that make it work rather well within our own city and community and can possibly serve as a model to new and current rides.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve chimed in before on this blog to offer up San Jose Bike Party as an interesting take on the mass ride, and while I hate to be one of those annoying people who can&#8217;t stop talking about themselves, I&#8217;m doing it again.</p>
<p>The aims of San Jose Bike Party (www.sjbikeparty.org) are not all too different than Critical Mass, but the methods to achieve those ends vary.  I&#8217;m not going to argue which version is better, I just want to point out that there&#8217;s different methods and in three short years, San Jose&#8217;s has grown very popular, not just with the bicyclist community, but with a larger populace, including many city officials.</p>
<p>Marc from CriticalMassSucks and anyone else reading this, you should check out San Jose&#8217;s ride.  There&#8217;s also a lot of good media on the ride as well, wiki.sjbikeparty.org/inthemedia.</p>
<p>Okay, sorry to jump on someone else&#8217;s blog, but the conversation unfolding here made me really want to add this in.  I&#8217;m not opposed to CM and am in fact am grateful that it set a world-wide movement in place.  I do think that San Jose has taken CM as a working model and made some significant changes that make it work rather well within our own city and community and can possibly serve as a model to new and current rides.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is Critical Mass Bad — or Good — for Biking? Veteran Bike Activists Chime In by Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/05/25/is-critical-mass-bad-or-good/comment-page-1/#comment-5527</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Aug 2010 01:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=451#comment-5527</guid>
		<description>Hello Hugh,
This is the first link you sent me on the list of links you requested I respond to after you saw my website CriticalMassSucks.com.
As you have already seen, I can get rather verbose, so I will try as best I can to keep this brief, as many of my points are already available on the website, which I hope you thoroughly reviewed.

Your question is a simple one on the surface: Is Critical Mass bad or good for biking.
However, I&#039;m not sure what the terms &quot;good&quot; or &quot;bad&quot; actually means in this situation.
Do you call it &quot;good&quot; if you see more people using bikes, but also more people angry at cyclists in general? No idea. But let&#039;s just assume for the sake of argument, that &quot;good&quot; = a net positive effect, even though many people are put off by Critical Mass (because clearly they are). We&#039;ll just keep it nice and easy and hypothetical.

I  do not have a concrete answer on whether it is good or bad for cycling, nor does anyone else if they are being honest. I do however have an opinion in relation to this and it will be my point 2, below, but first I must respond to the notion that anecdotal evidence on both sides is equal, as I offer the idea for consideration that it is not. I will discuss this in my Point 1 below.


Point 1:
ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE 
You make the claim that both sides use anecdotal evidence.  I believe you are implying that they then cancel each other out or that they have equal weight in the overall argument. I submit that this is not true in the present debate. IF the course of action that the evidence were arguing for or against were neutral, then yes, they would be the same  - however Critical Mass is decidedly NOT a neutral event. It is an illegal and disruptive event, and the evidence offers to try to persuade someone AGAINST critical mass must be added to the fact that you are in the wrong to begin with. 

It&#039;s like this.

Me: Hey, you shouldn&#039;t do that (insert illegal, disruptive activity here) !
Respondent: &quot;Why not?&quot;
Me: Besides being illegal and disruptive you mean? Well, if you actually NEED another reason, for one thing it MAY cause bad thing &quot;X&quot;.
Respondent: Yeah, but it MIGHT NOT cause bad thing &quot;X&quot;, it MIGHT cause good thing &quot;Y&quot;. Therefore I will do this already bad thing (illegal and disruptive behavior) because it just MIGHT cause this good thing &quot;Y&quot;.

When people use anecdotal evidence against CM, it must be taken into the true context of the debate and added to the consideration to not do the illegal, disruptive behavior that you are already engaging in. 

Example: I would never offer the argument that forcing cars to idle adds to the net pollution for the day as the SOLE reason to not participate in Critical Mass  (even though it arguably does). But since CM is illegal and disruptive, I offer it as an ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATION for those who are weighing whether they should participate.


Whether you agree with this line of thinking or not is a mute point though once we look at Point 2.


Point 2:
IS CRITICAL MASS BAD OR GOOD FOR CYLING?
First, let&#039;s be clear that there will NEVER be a way to tell if CM has a net benefit to cycling because even if you could study the past and take in all factors (negative and positive) and obtain results as to net effect for the present, you will never be able to go back in time and see what the world would be like WITHOUT CM&#039;s existence  — unless someone invents a time machine and somehow stops CM from ever existing and seeing how things play out. Having said that, I do not know empirically whether Critical Mass helps or hurts cycling.

However, even if I were living in the hypothetical world where I was able to be presented with 100% scientific evidence that CM DOES help cycling, I would not approve.  This would be a &quot;the end justifies the means&quot; argument - one that is rejected by most rational thinkers.

If every person who broke the law and did something  that negatively affected hundreds of fellow citizens then tried to pose a defense of their actions as &quot;well it did  some good,&quot; then we would be in a really sad state indeed. But apparently the argument isn&#039;t even that. Correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but I think you are saying,  &quot;well it MIGHT be doing good&quot;. It MIGHT? So you are willfully breaking the law and disrupting the city you live in because -  &quot;it MIGHT do some good for cycling?&quot;

I cannot justify this sort of behavior, and like many like me are mystified that there are those among us who do. The sad fact is that I don&#039;t really think participants actually DO &quot;justify&quot; their behavior. They just do it without giving it that much thought. It&#039;s &quot;fun&quot; for them.

I understand the need in this day and age to want to do something about the state we find ourselves in, I really do. However there are ways to go about creating change that do not employ tactics against society in general. It upsets me that my fellow man has devolved into this sort of behavior under the guise of righteousness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Hugh,<br />
This is the first link you sent me on the list of links you requested I respond to after you saw my website CriticalMassSucks.com.<br />
As you have already seen, I can get rather verbose, so I will try as best I can to keep this brief, as many of my points are already available on the website, which I hope you thoroughly reviewed.</p>
<p>Your question is a simple one on the surface: Is Critical Mass bad or good for biking.<br />
However, I&#8217;m not sure what the terms &#8220;good&#8221; or &#8220;bad&#8221; actually means in this situation.<br />
Do you call it &#8220;good&#8221; if you see more people using bikes, but also more people angry at cyclists in general? No idea. But let&#8217;s just assume for the sake of argument, that &#8220;good&#8221; = a net positive effect, even though many people are put off by Critical Mass (because clearly they are). We&#8217;ll just keep it nice and easy and hypothetical.</p>
<p>I  do not have a concrete answer on whether it is good or bad for cycling, nor does anyone else if they are being honest. I do however have an opinion in relation to this and it will be my point 2, below, but first I must respond to the notion that anecdotal evidence on both sides is equal, as I offer the idea for consideration that it is not. I will discuss this in my Point 1 below.</p>
<p>Point 1:<br />
ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE<br />
You make the claim that both sides use anecdotal evidence.  I believe you are implying that they then cancel each other out or that they have equal weight in the overall argument. I submit that this is not true in the present debate. IF the course of action that the evidence were arguing for or against were neutral, then yes, they would be the same  &#8211; however Critical Mass is decidedly NOT a neutral event. It is an illegal and disruptive event, and the evidence offers to try to persuade someone AGAINST critical mass must be added to the fact that you are in the wrong to begin with. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s like this.</p>
<p>Me: Hey, you shouldn&#8217;t do that (insert illegal, disruptive activity here) !<br />
Respondent: &#8220;Why not?&#8221;<br />
Me: Besides being illegal and disruptive you mean? Well, if you actually NEED another reason, for one thing it MAY cause bad thing &#8220;X&#8221;.<br />
Respondent: Yeah, but it MIGHT NOT cause bad thing &#8220;X&#8221;, it MIGHT cause good thing &#8220;Y&#8221;. Therefore I will do this already bad thing (illegal and disruptive behavior) because it just MIGHT cause this good thing &#8220;Y&#8221;.</p>
<p>When people use anecdotal evidence against CM, it must be taken into the true context of the debate and added to the consideration to not do the illegal, disruptive behavior that you are already engaging in. </p>
<p>Example: I would never offer the argument that forcing cars to idle adds to the net pollution for the day as the SOLE reason to not participate in Critical Mass  (even though it arguably does). But since CM is illegal and disruptive, I offer it as an ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATION for those who are weighing whether they should participate.</p>
<p>Whether you agree with this line of thinking or not is a mute point though once we look at Point 2.</p>
<p>Point 2:<br />
IS CRITICAL MASS BAD OR GOOD FOR CYLING?<br />
First, let&#8217;s be clear that there will NEVER be a way to tell if CM has a net benefit to cycling because even if you could study the past and take in all factors (negative and positive) and obtain results as to net effect for the present, you will never be able to go back in time and see what the world would be like WITHOUT CM&#8217;s existence  — unless someone invents a time machine and somehow stops CM from ever existing and seeing how things play out. Having said that, I do not know empirically whether Critical Mass helps or hurts cycling.</p>
<p>However, even if I were living in the hypothetical world where I was able to be presented with 100% scientific evidence that CM DOES help cycling, I would not approve.  This would be a &#8220;the end justifies the means&#8221; argument &#8211; one that is rejected by most rational thinkers.</p>
<p>If every person who broke the law and did something  that negatively affected hundreds of fellow citizens then tried to pose a defense of their actions as &#8220;well it did  some good,&#8221; then we would be in a really sad state indeed. But apparently the argument isn&#8217;t even that. Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but I think you are saying,  &#8220;well it MIGHT be doing good&#8221;. It MIGHT? So you are willfully breaking the law and disrupting the city you live in because &#8211;  &#8220;it MIGHT do some good for cycling?&#8221;</p>
<p>I cannot justify this sort of behavior, and like many like me are mystified that there are those among us who do. The sad fact is that I don&#8217;t really think participants actually DO &#8220;justify&#8221; their behavior. They just do it without giving it that much thought. It&#8217;s &#8220;fun&#8221; for them.</p>
<p>I understand the need in this day and age to want to do something about the state we find ourselves in, I really do. However there are ways to go about creating change that do not employ tactics against society in general. It upsets me that my fellow man has devolved into this sort of behavior under the guise of righteousness.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Uncivility Sucks by hughillustration</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/08/22/uncivility-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-5489</link>
		<dc:creator>hughillustration</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=546#comment-5489</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comment, sdills. I would like to challenge your view that motorists are all law-abiding, road-sharing model citizens, while bicyclists are all scofflaws who ignore traffic laws. As a motorist, this may be your experience. However, as a cyclist, my experience is the opposite. I see motorists every day who drive recklessly everywhere I look. And I am much more concerned about motorists who ignore traffic laws than I am about cyclists, for one simple reason: cars kill.

Here is one law that I see motorists routinely ignoring: the requirement that they slow down and look for pedestrian traffic when taking a right turn on green, and that they stop completely before proceeding to take a legal right turn on red. Quite often — every day, in fact — I see motorists take right turns at incredibly dangerous speed, speeds that make checking for pedestrian traffic impossible, and would make stopping for pedestrians difficult and dangerous. Cars just whip around right hand turns, and everyone just has to get out of their way. As a pedestrian, I look over my shoulder &lt;em&gt;when crossing with the light&lt;/em&gt; to ensure that a car does not run me over.

Bicyclists do make a habit of making a rolling through stop signs when there is no traffic, and often riding through reds after checking for through traffic. This is illegal, and in some situations is rude. But how many deaths and serious injuries are caused by bicycle scofflaws? Not many. And how many are caused by motorists driving recklessly and illegally? On a yearly basis, thousands upon thousands of people are killed this way.

I suggest changing your focus to address the real danger on our streets.

Thanks for reading and writing!

H.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment, sdills. I would like to challenge your view that motorists are all law-abiding, road-sharing model citizens, while bicyclists are all scofflaws who ignore traffic laws. As a motorist, this may be your experience. However, as a cyclist, my experience is the opposite. I see motorists every day who drive recklessly everywhere I look. And I am much more concerned about motorists who ignore traffic laws than I am about cyclists, for one simple reason: cars kill.</p>
<p>Here is one law that I see motorists routinely ignoring: the requirement that they slow down and look for pedestrian traffic when taking a right turn on green, and that they stop completely before proceeding to take a legal right turn on red. Quite often — every day, in fact — I see motorists take right turns at incredibly dangerous speed, speeds that make checking for pedestrian traffic impossible, and would make stopping for pedestrians difficult and dangerous. Cars just whip around right hand turns, and everyone just has to get out of their way. As a pedestrian, I look over my shoulder <em>when crossing with the light</em> to ensure that a car does not run me over.</p>
<p>Bicyclists do make a habit of making a rolling through stop signs when there is no traffic, and often riding through reds after checking for through traffic. This is illegal, and in some situations is rude. But how many deaths and serious injuries are caused by bicycle scofflaws? Not many. And how many are caused by motorists driving recklessly and illegally? On a yearly basis, thousands upon thousands of people are killed this way.</p>
<p>I suggest changing your focus to address the real danger on our streets.</p>
<p>Thanks for reading and writing!</p>
<p>H.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Uncivility Sucks by sdills</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/08/22/uncivility-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-5483</link>
		<dc:creator>sdills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=546#comment-5483</guid>
		<description>As we discuss here at my place of work, the one major complaint that I think defines the gap between bicyclist and car has come up (and is also pointed out on CMSucks). It regards the call to &quot;share the road&quot; that we all see in various major metropolitan areas in the US. This, of course, seems completely justified and reasonable. However, while car drivers do share the road as best we can by obeying traffic laws (you don&#039;t hear about bikes getting run over every day), bicyclists seem to have the idea that they do not need to heed simple rules of law like stop-signs, red lights or traffic lines. I venture to say that it is this disregard for what everyone in a motor vehicle has to put up with (or face possible legal repercussions) that sours the extremist bike community in the eyes of drivers. In the end, sharing is a two way street, and we need to work together to make it happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As we discuss here at my place of work, the one major complaint that I think defines the gap between bicyclist and car has come up (and is also pointed out on CMSucks). It regards the call to &#8220;share the road&#8221; that we all see in various major metropolitan areas in the US. This, of course, seems completely justified and reasonable. However, while car drivers do share the road as best we can by obeying traffic laws (you don&#8217;t hear about bikes getting run over every day), bicyclists seem to have the idea that they do not need to heed simple rules of law like stop-signs, red lights or traffic lines. I venture to say that it is this disregard for what everyone in a motor vehicle has to put up with (or face possible legal repercussions) that sours the extremist bike community in the eyes of drivers. In the end, sharing is a two way street, and we need to work together to make it happen.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Uncivility Sucks by Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/08/22/uncivility-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-5432</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=546#comment-5432</guid>
		<description>Good afternoon Hugh,
I will use part of my lunchbreak today to get this started so that I can actually respond to one of your Arguments this weekend.

As I stated on the FB blog End Critcal Mass In San Diego. I will post my replies to the links you sent me via FB, but first I will provide some background about myself just so we know each other a little better. After all, its the &quot;civil&quot; thing to do. Much of this will be a big yawner to your regulars, but I feel it&#039;s an appropriate start. 

First, let me say &quot;Thank You&quot; for appropriating my artwork and changing it for your own purpose. After all, &quot;Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.&quot; right?
I actually took a lot of time to draw the D-bag meter, and you just copy-paste and make some changes. It just don&#039;t seem fair! LOL. But hey, in this age of musicians appropriating lyrics, rifs and everything else they can from those who come before them, then making minor changes and calling it their new rap album, I guess I can understand.

So, why make CriticalMassSucks.com? Well, to give you some background I am the type that wants to do something about wrongs that I see. When the city planted trees on all the neighboring streets and somehow missed mine - then would not take my countless calls about it -  I bought shovel, pick and several trees and planted them myself. Then watered them by lugging buckets out because the rental neighbors could care less. When police helicopters were using the area right above my neighborhood as a staging area five times a night threw the early hours of the morning, I wrote letters to the editor of the Union Tribune which was published leading to discussions with the captain of the police helicopter division and letting them know what the problem is (they fixed it). From writing to my congressman to  joining hard-core rightwing blogs so I can let them know how flawed (in my opinion) their logic is, I am one to actually DO something when I see or hear something that irks me, even if it costs my personal time and money (both limited). I put CriticalMassSucks.com together before my son was born, so I actually had time then. I could not do it now, but luckily I had it finished before he came along. I don&#039;t bring this up to pat myself on the back for things that any conscientious member of society does, I bring it up to illustrate a point. A responsible member of society CAN create change if you take the time to do it properly. It is hard work and boring. Not the same at all as riding your bike once a month (in ways you can&#039;t legally in any other day) then telling yourself you did a good thing. You are starting off from a point of being in the wrong. Not a good place to start.

I must also point out for the record that I am politically an independent, however I am certainly more liberal than not and actually registered Democrat so I could vote Democrat in the primaries. I point this out because in the  many blog posts I have made in my research the first response seems to be to call me some right-wing shill and that I must be  a representative of car companies and oil companies. As my website states, I am not FOR cars, i&#039;m  just AGAINST Critical Mass. For many CM participants they cannot get past the idea that someone can be all for cycling, but opposed to THEM.

My problems with Critical Mass are profound and I wont rehash them all here. If you have been to my site, you know already. But why this sort of sarcastic, &quot;in-your face&quot; website? Because humor works. Pretty simple, thats all there is to it. Humor gets attention and it helps to alleviate stress - especially when someone agrees with you - then they can say &#039;Hell yeah! I know how you feel man!&quot; Quite frankly, those who disagree can go somewhere else. There are plenty of sites that support Critical Mass. See in America we get to call people out when we don&#039;t like what they do. Surely being involved in something that admittedly incites people such as CM should tell you that you will have those who oppose you? This is simple logic. 

In my months long research in putting together the site one thing came through loud and clear. People are frustrated, upset and angry over this behavior. But where can one go to see that others feel the same way? It took me months to find various sources and go to various blogs, etc., discussion with police officers including the police captain in charge of the balboa park area where San Diego&#039;s CM takes place. I was surprised that there was not one place where one could go that had a LOT of info. The words that came up over and over were &#039;critical mass sucks&quot; and of course, the now famous &quot;D-bag&quot; comments. I am fully aware that anyone going to my site is probably (hopefully) going to find it after doing an internet search  &quot;critical mass sucks&quot;, and that the majority already share my view. It is not meant to be unbiased (the title should tell you that). My site provides some basic background info, plus links to actual valuable sites regarding bike safety and routes, and how to help limit pollution, etc – and of course, at the end it provides HUMOR. Now, you may not think its very funny because you have an opposing view, but my hope is that anyone who feels angry or frustrated and finds my site will know that there are MANY MANY others like them that share their view… and maybe  get a chuckle out of it as we jointly point the finger and make fun of CM. And OH BOY, CM is so easy to make fun of isn&#039;t it? Breaking the law, disrupting society, having a morally superior view of those you are affecting. I mean c&#039;mon, this stuff writes itself. 

Sorry about my stream of consciousness post - guess I read too much Kerouac in college, but I will try to keep things together here. I don&#039;t have the time to go back and edit so if something has the wrong tense or there aren&#039;t enough paragraph breaks, you&#039;ll just have to cut me some slack.

Where was I. Oh, yeah - See the thing about CriticalMassSucks.com is - if you don&#039;t like it, all it takes is the effort of moving one finger down and clicking it away. For someone who attends an &quot;event&quot; where they intentionally mess with the community, actually TRAPPING some of them, complaining that my website is &quot;uncivil&quot; is quite laughable.

It should also be noted that civil disobedience in almost all cases involved the participants demonstrating against GOVERNMENT, not their fellow man. There is no big evil &quot;They&quot; that your are confronting on the streets. There are no (how did one of your followers put it that you thought was the best comment ever), oh yeah, no &#039;Establishmentati&quot; that you are going up against. Just PEOPLE. Regular people who are doing their best to live in society, and doing a far better job of it than CM participants.

Let me make one thing clear, If the joker who made the &quot;Establishmentati&quot; comment were participating in an event that went up against - oh, say an oil company, or surrounded a government building and went in circles around it - I would be 100% for it! Truly. This would be true &quot;civil disobedience&quot; and I would applaud him and his attitude. However, as it stands now he is just messing with someone&#039;s grandma and sister and mom, so I find him nothing less than disgusting.

Are some of the arguments on CriticalMassSucks.com maybe a little thin? Perhaps a little, but no matter how thin any of them are (and I&#039;m willing to defend ANY of them), they are going up against motivations that - no matter how noble - use tactics that do not belong in civilized society. Remember now, as stated before I am FOR cycling, just not for Critical Mass.

Now, lets begin. I shall take a look at your first link this weekend, see what you have to say. And respond to the first one. I will probably only have time to get through one, but we shall see.

Stay safe on the road. I hope you have a pleasant day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good afternoon Hugh,<br />
I will use part of my lunchbreak today to get this started so that I can actually respond to one of your Arguments this weekend.</p>
<p>As I stated on the FB blog End Critcal Mass In San Diego. I will post my replies to the links you sent me via FB, but first I will provide some background about myself just so we know each other a little better. After all, its the &#8220;civil&#8221; thing to do. Much of this will be a big yawner to your regulars, but I feel it&#8217;s an appropriate start. </p>
<p>First, let me say &#8220;Thank You&#8221; for appropriating my artwork and changing it for your own purpose. After all, &#8220;Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.&#8221; right?<br />
I actually took a lot of time to draw the D-bag meter, and you just copy-paste and make some changes. It just don&#8217;t seem fair! LOL. But hey, in this age of musicians appropriating lyrics, rifs and everything else they can from those who come before them, then making minor changes and calling it their new rap album, I guess I can understand.</p>
<p>So, why make CriticalMassSucks.com? Well, to give you some background I am the type that wants to do something about wrongs that I see. When the city planted trees on all the neighboring streets and somehow missed mine &#8211; then would not take my countless calls about it &#8211;  I bought shovel, pick and several trees and planted them myself. Then watered them by lugging buckets out because the rental neighbors could care less. When police helicopters were using the area right above my neighborhood as a staging area five times a night threw the early hours of the morning, I wrote letters to the editor of the Union Tribune which was published leading to discussions with the captain of the police helicopter division and letting them know what the problem is (they fixed it). From writing to my congressman to  joining hard-core rightwing blogs so I can let them know how flawed (in my opinion) their logic is, I am one to actually DO something when I see or hear something that irks me, even if it costs my personal time and money (both limited). I put CriticalMassSucks.com together before my son was born, so I actually had time then. I could not do it now, but luckily I had it finished before he came along. I don&#8217;t bring this up to pat myself on the back for things that any conscientious member of society does, I bring it up to illustrate a point. A responsible member of society CAN create change if you take the time to do it properly. It is hard work and boring. Not the same at all as riding your bike once a month (in ways you can&#8217;t legally in any other day) then telling yourself you did a good thing. You are starting off from a point of being in the wrong. Not a good place to start.</p>
<p>I must also point out for the record that I am politically an independent, however I am certainly more liberal than not and actually registered Democrat so I could vote Democrat in the primaries. I point this out because in the  many blog posts I have made in my research the first response seems to be to call me some right-wing shill and that I must be  a representative of car companies and oil companies. As my website states, I am not FOR cars, i&#8217;m  just AGAINST Critical Mass. For many CM participants they cannot get past the idea that someone can be all for cycling, but opposed to THEM.</p>
<p>My problems with Critical Mass are profound and I wont rehash them all here. If you have been to my site, you know already. But why this sort of sarcastic, &#8220;in-your face&#8221; website? Because humor works. Pretty simple, thats all there is to it. Humor gets attention and it helps to alleviate stress &#8211; especially when someone agrees with you &#8211; then they can say &#8216;Hell yeah! I know how you feel man!&#8221; Quite frankly, those who disagree can go somewhere else. There are plenty of sites that support Critical Mass. See in America we get to call people out when we don&#8217;t like what they do. Surely being involved in something that admittedly incites people such as CM should tell you that you will have those who oppose you? This is simple logic. </p>
<p>In my months long research in putting together the site one thing came through loud and clear. People are frustrated, upset and angry over this behavior. But where can one go to see that others feel the same way? It took me months to find various sources and go to various blogs, etc., discussion with police officers including the police captain in charge of the balboa park area where San Diego&#8217;s CM takes place. I was surprised that there was not one place where one could go that had a LOT of info. The words that came up over and over were &#8216;critical mass sucks&#8221; and of course, the now famous &#8220;D-bag&#8221; comments. I am fully aware that anyone going to my site is probably (hopefully) going to find it after doing an internet search  &#8220;critical mass sucks&#8221;, and that the majority already share my view. It is not meant to be unbiased (the title should tell you that). My site provides some basic background info, plus links to actual valuable sites regarding bike safety and routes, and how to help limit pollution, etc – and of course, at the end it provides HUMOR. Now, you may not think its very funny because you have an opposing view, but my hope is that anyone who feels angry or frustrated and finds my site will know that there are MANY MANY others like them that share their view… and maybe  get a chuckle out of it as we jointly point the finger and make fun of CM. And OH BOY, CM is so easy to make fun of isn&#8217;t it? Breaking the law, disrupting society, having a morally superior view of those you are affecting. I mean c&#8217;mon, this stuff writes itself. </p>
<p>Sorry about my stream of consciousness post &#8211; guess I read too much Kerouac in college, but I will try to keep things together here. I don&#8217;t have the time to go back and edit so if something has the wrong tense or there aren&#8217;t enough paragraph breaks, you&#8217;ll just have to cut me some slack.</p>
<p>Where was I. Oh, yeah &#8211; See the thing about CriticalMassSucks.com is &#8211; if you don&#8217;t like it, all it takes is the effort of moving one finger down and clicking it away. For someone who attends an &#8220;event&#8221; where they intentionally mess with the community, actually TRAPPING some of them, complaining that my website is &#8220;uncivil&#8221; is quite laughable.</p>
<p>It should also be noted that civil disobedience in almost all cases involved the participants demonstrating against GOVERNMENT, not their fellow man. There is no big evil &#8220;They&#8221; that your are confronting on the streets. There are no (how did one of your followers put it that you thought was the best comment ever), oh yeah, no &#8216;Establishmentati&#8221; that you are going up against. Just PEOPLE. Regular people who are doing their best to live in society, and doing a far better job of it than CM participants.</p>
<p>Let me make one thing clear, If the joker who made the &#8220;Establishmentati&#8221; comment were participating in an event that went up against &#8211; oh, say an oil company, or surrounded a government building and went in circles around it &#8211; I would be 100% for it! Truly. This would be true &#8220;civil disobedience&#8221; and I would applaud him and his attitude. However, as it stands now he is just messing with someone&#8217;s grandma and sister and mom, so I find him nothing less than disgusting.</p>
<p>Are some of the arguments on CriticalMassSucks.com maybe a little thin? Perhaps a little, but no matter how thin any of them are (and I&#8217;m willing to defend ANY of them), they are going up against motivations that &#8211; no matter how noble &#8211; use tactics that do not belong in civilized society. Remember now, as stated before I am FOR cycling, just not for Critical Mass.</p>
<p>Now, lets begin. I shall take a look at your first link this weekend, see what you have to say. And respond to the first one. I will probably only have time to get through one, but we shall see.</p>
<p>Stay safe on the road. I hope you have a pleasant day.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Uncivility Sucks by adama</title>
		<link>http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/2010/08/22/uncivility-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-5396</link>
		<dc:creator>adama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfcriticalmass.org/?p=546#comment-5396</guid>
		<description>Rob- I&#039;m wondering whether you actually have any direct knowledge of Critical Mass. You&#039;re welcome to join us! I even have comfortable space on the back of my cargo bike. Snacks provided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob- I&#8217;m wondering whether you actually have any direct knowledge of Critical Mass. You&#8217;re welcome to join us! I even have comfortable space on the back of my cargo bike. Snacks provided.</p>
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